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发布时间:2021-10-16 丨 浏览次数:408

本文摘要:Edward Snowden has rounded on his hosts, attacking the Kremlin’s human rights record and implicating Russia in two of the US government’s latest major security hacks.爱德华斯诺登(Edward Snowden)批评他目前客居的国家,他抨击克里姆林宫的人权记录,并暗指俄罗斯与近期两起针对美国政府的根本性黑客攻击事件有瓜葛。

Edward Snowden has rounded on his hosts, attacking the Kremlin’s human rights record and implicating Russia in two of the US government’s latest major security hacks.爱德华斯诺登(Edward Snowden)批评他目前客居的国家,他抨击克里姆林宫的人权记录,并暗指俄罗斯与近期两起针对美国政府的根本性黑客攻击事件有瓜葛。In a Lunch with the FT — carried below — he complained Moscow had gone very far, in ways that are completely unnecessary, costly and corrosive to individual and collective rights and added that his greatest loyalty was still to the US.在与FT共进午餐(闻以下专访全文)中,他吐槽莫斯科做到得过于过,采行了几乎没适当、代价高昂并且伤害个人和集体权利的行事方式,并说他仍然对美国抱有仅次于的忠心。

He described the leak last month of NSA espionage tools, potentially by Russia as an implicit threat to the US government. 在他显然,上个月美国国家安全局(NSA)的间谍工具被泄漏一事——有可能是俄罗斯所为——是向美国政府收到的含蓄威胁。Efforts by hackers called the Shadow Brokers to auction off NSA computer code used to break into foreign networks were an attempt to show Washington how vulnerable it was, he added.他说道,这伙叫作影子经纪人的黑客要将美国国家安全局用作侵略外国网络的计算机代码拍卖会,其本意是要让华盛顿想到,这些代码有多不堪一击。Snowden insisted that all dealings with Russian officials were conducted by his lawyer. 斯诺登否认,所有与俄罗斯官员之间的调停都是由他的律师出面展开的。


I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia and that’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.我和俄罗斯并没很多关联,这是无意的,因为——尽管这听得一起很可怕——我仍然计划着要离开了。Edward Snowden is not the easiest lunch date. 契约斯诺登一起不吃个午餐不过于更容易。The former National Security Agency operative doesn’t fancy talking in a Moscow restaurant so — via an intermediary — we settle on meeting in my hotel and risk the room service. 这位美国国家安全局的前工作人员想在莫斯科的哪一家餐厅谈话,因此,通过一位中间人,我们要求就在我寄居的酒店碰头,冒险尝试一下客房服务。

He will present himself at the agreed time. 他自会在誓约的时间露面。That’s all I need to know.我只必须告诉这一点。

In the end he’s 20 minutes late, dressed casually in black jeans and black V-neck, buttoned-up T-shirt carrying a pair of unbranded dark glasses. 结果斯诺登耽误了20分钟。他一身休闲娱乐装扮,穿著黑色牛仔裤和一件激进的黑色V领T恤,戴着一副没品牌logo的墨镜。

He eyes up the small, dimly lit room 203 of the Golden Apple boutique hotel — half an hour’s gentle stroll from the Kremlin — with the look of a man who has spent too much time in such places.他打量了一番金苹果精品酒店(Golden Apple)——从这里拦超过克里姆林宫必须半小时——狭小明亮的203号房间,一副在这种地方寄居过很长时间的样子。How does it compare with room 1014 of the Mira Hotel in Hong Kong, where in June 2013 — having shared many of the NSA’s most closely guarded secrets with a few handpicked journalists — Snowden spent a week as the most wanted man in the world?这个房间和香港美丽华酒店(Mira Hotel)1014号房间比一起怎样呢?2013年6月他在那个房间里寄居了一周,作为世界头号通缉犯——在他与挑选出的几名记者共享了美国国家安全局许多最不严激进的秘密之后。A bit smaller, but not dissimilar, he says. 小一点,但也没有多大有所不同,他说道。

The Hong Kong room had a glass bathroom wall here, he adds, pointing to a bland wall featuring an obligatory hotel watercolour.香港那个房间在这里有一面浴室的玻璃墙,他拿着一面普普通通的墙壁说,墙上挂着一幅在酒店房间里少见的水彩画。The interior of the Mira hotel room is about to become much better known with the US release next week of Oliver Stone’s biopic about Snowden, which stars Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the whistleblower’s role. 美丽华酒店1014号房间内的布置将随着一部影片的公映而更为为人们熟知。奥利弗斯通(Oliver Stone)导演的斯诺登传记片于9月16日在美国公映,约瑟夫戈登-莱维兹(Joseph Gordon-Levitt)饰演泄密者斯诺登一角。

Much of the tensest, most claustrophobic action is filmed in a reconstruction of room 1014 built inside a hangar-like studio in Munich.片中最紧绷、最不具癫狂不安气氛的镜头是在慕尼黑一个飞机库般的摄影棚内修复的1014号房间里摄制的。During that intense week three years ago, Snowden and two Guardian reporters worked on those first stories disclosing the full capabilities that intelligence agencies can now deploy against populations. 3年前他住在美丽华酒店1014房间的那一周过得非常紧绷,因为他的爆料,两名《卫报》(Guardian)记者写了第一波透露当今情报部门需要用于在民众身上的全部监听能力的报导。


When he revealed himself as the source, he was acclaimed as a hero by some — others recommended the electric chair. 在他透露自己是消息来源后,一些人将他被誉为英雄,另外一些人明确提出应当让他跪电椅。I had never met him and was entirely reliant on the judgment of our veteran reporter, Ewen MacAskill, who rang to report (in pre-arranged code owing something to Hollywood) that the Guinness is good.我那时候还没见过他,我对他的全部理解都来自于我们的资深记者尤恩麦卡斯基尔(Ewen MacAskill)的辨别,他和斯诺登会面后,打电话来汇报——学好莱坞电影用于事前商量好的暗号——吉尼斯有趣(学术著作:回应斯诺登的消息是现实的)。I first saw his face about an hour before the rest of the world, when MacAskill filed his video interview to New York. 我第一次看到他的面孔约比世界上其他人早于一个小时——由劳拉波伊特拉斯(Laura Poitras)摄制的、麦卡斯基尔和格伦格林沃尔德(Glenn Greenwald)两位记者专访斯诺登的视频被发送到了纽约。Like everyone else there I was struck by his stubbled youth and impressed by his thoughtful articulacy. 就像到场所有其他人一样,斯诺登的年长——他婢着胡茬——让我愤慨,他的思维严谨和能说会道也让我印象深刻印象。

Today, at 33, there’s a touch less stubble, and the hair is a smidgen longer. 现在,33岁的斯诺登脸上的胡茬较少了一点,头发也比那时候宽了一点。He says he moves freely around Moscow, seldom recognised, which is surprising since he has changed little since that first picture of him etched itself on our consciousness.他说道他在莫斯科可以权利地四处回头,很少被人认出来,这一点让人吃惊,因为从他的第一张照片给我们留给印象以来,他完全没什么变化。Reading the laminated room-service menu card, complete with English translations, he is tempted by the spicy chicken curry with rice and chilli sauce. I go for the risotto with white mushrooms and a vinaigrette salad with herring. 看了客房里备有英文翻译的塑封菜单后,斯诺登顺位了辣味咖喱鸡配上米饭和辣酱,我中选了口蘑烩饭和油醋汁鲱鱼沙拉。Snowden — skinny thin — decides he can’t resist the crab cakes, too. 斯诺登——他十分髯——实在蟹饼也让人无法抗拒。

We telephone the order for the food, with mineral water.我们打电话点了餐,还要了矿泉水。He has been unwillingly marooned in Moscow since 2013 when — the subject of a giant manhunt — he was forced to leave Hong Kong. 自2013年遭大规模抓捕、不得已离开了香港以来,他仍然不情愿地被受困在莫斯科。How’s his Russian coming on? He confirms it’s up to ordering in a restaurant, but is reluctant to elaborate. 现在他的俄语怎么样?斯诺登回应他能在餐厅里用俄语点餐,但他不不愿细谈这个话题。

All my work’s in English. Everybody I talk to I speak to in English, he says. I sleep in Russia but I live all around the world. 我在工作中都用英语,我和每个人聊天都用英语说出,他说道,我睡觉在俄罗斯,但我生活在世界各地。I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia. That’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.我和俄罗斯并没很多关联,这是无意的,因为——这尽管听得一起很可怕——我仍然计划着离开了。He lives mainly on Eastern Standard Time and spends most of his waking hours online — but it always has been so. 他的作息基本遵循美国东部标准时间,睡时也多半都在网际网路,不过我仍然这么过的。

He admits he misses the sense of home represented by America, but technology overcomes most of that divide. 他否认自己思念美国代表的家的感觉,但科技基本上解决了这种分离出来。For me, I’m a little bit of an outlier to begin with because, remember, I signed up to go work overseas for the CIA and overseas for the NSA. 就我而言,我本来就类似于外派的工作人员,忘记不,我曾签下为中央情报局和国家安全局去海外工作。So it’s really not that much different from the postings that I had for the US.所以,这与我曾多次为美国驻外工作比起知道没过于大有所不同。

The only difference is that I’m still posted overseas and I work for the US but they don’t realise it. 唯一有所不同的是我仍然驻外,仍然为美国工作,只不过美国人民没有认识到罢了。As anyone who follows him on Twitter knows (he follows just one account: the NSA) he is capable of a very dry wit.在Twitter上注目了他的人都告诉,斯诺登可是个冷幽默高手(他的Twitter只注目了一个账号:美国国家安全局。

)He has seen a version of the Stone movie on one of the director’s trips to Moscow, during which Snowden says he would talk to Stone’s co-writer, Kieran Fitzgerald, about trying to keep the film a little bit closer to being reality.有一次斯通来莫斯科时,给斯诺登看了他拍电影的电影,那时他回应不愿和斯通的牵头编剧基兰菲茨杰拉德( Kieran Fitzgerald)谈谈如何让影片更加切合现实一点。But, he shrugs, I know it’s a drama, not a documentary. How would he score it out of 10? He avoids a rating. 不过,他耸了耸肩:我告诉这是戏,不是纪录片。On the policy questions, which I think are the most important thing for the public understanding, it’s as close to real as you can get in a film.如果评分十分,他不会给几分呢?斯诺登没评分:在政策问题上——我指出这是公众要告诉的最重要的事情——它早已超过了一部电影所能展现出的最现实的地步。

He met Gordon-Levitt in Moscow and thought him an amazing guy...we had lunch together, talked for several hours just about everything, our personal lives — what we think about, what we care about. 斯诺登在莫斯科闻了戈登-莱维兹,他指出对方是个真是的家伙……我们一起不吃了午餐,闲谈了几个小时,什么都闲谈,还包括我们的私人生活,我们的点子,我们在乎什么。At the time I thought it was just a social visit but, after the fact, he told me that he was actually scoping me out, trying to get my mannerisms.当时我以为这只是一次社交性的造访,但事后他告诉他我,他只不过是在推敲我,研究我的言谈举止。Having interviewed Gordon-Levitt’s Snowden as part of my own cameo in the film, I can vouch for how well he captures the real thing. 我在影片中的客串戏份是专访戈登-莱维兹扮演着的斯诺登,我可以打包票地说道,他极致地捕捉到了人物真髓。

Snowden was impressed, too: His characterisation of me makes me uncomfortable, with the super-deep gravelly voice, but that’s because you never hear your own voice the way other people do, right?斯诺登也印象深刻印象:他扮演着的我让我并不大自在,他的嗓音过于沙哑沙哑,不过这是因为人们从没听过别人耳中自己的声音,对吧?Was he moved by the film, which in flashback revisits the episodes in his life that led to what he calls his tortured decision to engineer the biggest leak of classified documents in history? There’s always going to be something emotional about seeing something that you did retold as a story by other people. 这部片子对他有感受到吗?影片以叙事手法重现了他的生活经历,正是这些经历造成他做出伤痛要求,从而生产了史上仅次于的机密文件泄漏事件。当你从别人叙述的故事中看见自己过往做到的事,总会有些动情。It shows a reflection of how your choices matter to them. 它反映了一种思维,关于你做到的自由选择对他们产生了怎样的影响。Three years later, seeing what we thought was going to be a five-day story still being reported on [makes me think] that I wasn’t crazy.3年过去,看见我们当初的点子变为一个5天故事,而且仍有媒体报道,让我实在自己当初并不是傻了。

There’s a knock on the door — which would have caused a spasm of paranoid anxiety in the Mira in 2013. 外面传到敲门声——这要是在2013年的美丽华酒店,认同不会引发猜忌和情绪。Now it’s just room service. 现在只是客房服务罢了。The floor is so small the waiter balances the tray on the bed and Snowden has to perch his chicken curry on his knee. 房间太小,服务员将架上搭乘在床上,斯诺登只好将咖喱鸡米饭放到膝盖上。


The water is missing. 水没有送上来。My vinaigrette salad turns out to be cubed beetroot. 我的沙拉原本是托成丁状的甜菜根。I avoid the herrings.我没有不吃鲱鱼。Once he nods at the iPhone recording our interview and expands on a point in case someone is listening. 他朝着正在录音我们专访现场的iPhone点了一下头,然后环绕防止有人在听得这个话题放了一通议论。

The first time I met him — to see how he was surviving in his new circumstances in spring 2014 — my iPhone had displayed a giant red thermometer, a sign of alarming overheating. 2014年春天我第一次闻他,想到他在新的环境里过得如何,当时我的iPhone上经常出现了一个极大的红色温度计,那是短路预警信号。Snowden had observed mildly it was because so many different people were trying to listen in.那时斯诺登保守地说道,这是因为有过于多有所不同来路的人企图监听它。



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